Green Monster Build

[magic robots]

The B16 kit I ordered ( MTB2 ) what seems like a million years ago has shipped and is arriving hopefully at the end of this week. I can't lie, I'm really frigg'n excited, so I thought I'd start my build log.

Good bye A+:

http://dentsport.com/gallery/d/6897-1/DSCF3816.JPG

Good bye beautiful new straight cut gears:

http://dentsport.com/gallery/d/6539-1/DSCF3603.JPG

( well built A+ with SC gears for sale! )

EDIT:
Other bits going into the build:

I bought some used KAD alloy rear swing arms with AVO coilovers for the rear end from a gentleman on the minimania forums.

I bought an Integra Type R helical gear LSD to replace the phantom grip LSD I got from Minitec. I don't want to mess around with the possibility of a blown transmission.

I ordered a set of wheels from minisport.com in the UK -- 13x7 deepdish ultralights, with 175/50/13 Yoko A048s. They are out of stock of the "tyres" at the moment but I won't need them till the spring time anyway.

Hoorah!

[pwr2wh8]

your existing setup is very nice! but i'm pretty sure you'll love the vtec setup better. i'll be looking forward to your build!

i too have been pondering whether to swap my phantom lsd for a quaife lsd. some say don't and some say do. can you explain what made you choose to swap it?

[Ironraven]

Congrats on getting the kit shipped! If I had a kit ordered I'd already have my mini torn down waiting for it to come... but that's 'cause I'm impatient as.

How much did shipping run you from the UK on those wheels? I'm asking because I'm looking at a set of Alleycats from Huddersfield Spares but I fear the shipping cost...

[magic robots]

@Ironraven: I haven't gotten the shipping quote yet because the tyres are backordered, and they won't give me an estimate. Even if shipping is 500 clams I'll still be saving money over the US prices of this setup. The set is 464 GBP; under 1000 USD. Woo!

@boister77: I was talked into the gear based LSD by some of the guys at the sport garage (http://dentsport.com/) I go to. I've heard of too many Phantom Grips either performing poorly or failing -- and when they fail apparently they take the entire transmission with them. That is not a risk I'm willing to take. I've heard the Quafe LSD is a little too harsh for mini use, so I went with the helical gear of the ITR setup. Here's to hoping it's what I'm looking for! Plus, the price is right. :)

[Ironraven]

The Quaife and ITR are very similar LSD's... they are both helical TBD's (torque biasing differential) the quaife is a LOT stronger though and has a lifetime warranty no matter what you do with it (ie drag race with a 1000whp turbocharged engine...). I had a Quaife in my turbo'ed RSX and loved it... they are spendy though.

Yeah, the Alleycats are 465 GBP! I can't wait to get them on my mini... but I think I'm doing the VTEC swap first. I'm using the Honda brake conversion so I'll be driving around with 10" wheels and Honda power for awhile... traction should be interesting lol.

[william75]

im running the type r tranny with LSD and have no problems thus far....its a piece of cake to lay a double legger down the entire block...... :lol:

[magic robots]

@william - Hehehe, good to know!

@Ironraven - I just called Huddersfield 'cause I didn't know they exist (awesome!) and they have that set of "racing" split rim revolutions that look VERY interesting indeed. Anyway, they estimated a shipping cost of about 115 GBP for that set; to Massachusetts. But nobody in the UK seems to have the Yoko A048Rs in stock till January. Oh wells. I'll just wait. Thanks for pointing out that resource!

[Ironraven]

@william - Hehehe, good to know!

@Ironraven - I just called Huddersfield 'cause I didn't know they exist (awesome!) and they have that set of "racing" split rim revolutions that look VERY interesting indeed. Anyway, they estimated a shipping cost of about 115 GBP for that set; to Massachusetts. But nobody in the UK seems to have the Yoko A048Rs in stock till January. Oh wells. I'll just wait. Thanks for pointing out that resource!

No problem, glad I could help! Wow, 200 clams shipping eh? Even so that's only about $1000 for a set of wheels and tires, that's a KILLER deal. I'd buy flares from them at the same time I think.

[magic robots]

It's such a crazy deal, I love it. My car's already got decent flares, they should do.

I just uploaded a bunch of pics of the new kit:

http://gallery.mac.com/adamhelfethilliker#100048

lookin' good!

http://gallery.mac.com/adamhelfethilliker/100048/IMG_2849/web.jpg

[magic robots]

I did a couple hours of work this weekend -- am pulling the motor from the subframe to install the ITR LSD and 8lb ACT Prolight flywheel. Part of the process involved removing the shock absorbers from the subframe, but the bolt holding one of the shocks on was so tight that we're going to need a wrecking bar to break it off ... I think it might have been stripped when built. Oh wells.

EDIT:
this is the bolt, the jerk:

http://gallery.mac.com/adamhelfethilliker/100048/IMG_2873/web.jpg

[steve]

Don't break it off! Just cut off the bolt head with a hack saw or cut off wheel, remove the shock, then use a torch to heat the bolt and turn it back and forth, just slightly, with a pair of vice grips until it loosens up; before you try to un screw it.

[magic robots]

http://gallery.mac.com/adamhelfethilliker/100048/IMG_2917/web.jpg

Turns out the screw never broke, it just unscrewed SLOWLY and at crazy angles. We thought the screw might have been bent, but it appears it was too long when they installed it, so it mushroomed at the end when they screwed it in too far. I contacted them about the problem and they're sending me a new upper suspension arm and bolt. Yay!

All else is going well though:

http://gallery.mac.com/adamhelfethilliker/100048/IMG_2931/web.jpg

Boy was my clutch used!

http://gallery.mac.com/adamhelfethilliker/100048/IMG_2921/web.jpg

[Ironraven]

Looks great! Wow, you aren't messing around w/ this install are ya?

[magic robots]

I'm going to spend as much time at the garage as I can manage. It's not so much that I want to get it done soon (which I do) but more that I just can't stop thinking about it and would rather be there tooling than anywhere else.

[Ironraven]

I hear ya... I can't wait to get started on my project. I should be acquiring my engine in the next couple months and then I need to save for the sub frame. While I'm waiting I am going to have to insulate the garage so I can start wrenching lol.

[LAMINI]

1. Remove those cheap bolts that hold the coil-overs....they will break!....replace them with grade-8 bolds.

2. Remove the lower tie bars if they are the aluminum/metal type. Unlike metals eats up the threads and will split.

cheers

[magic robots]

1. Remove those cheap bolts that hold the coil-overs....they will break!....replace them with grade-8 bolds.

2. Remove the lower tie bars if they are the aluminum/metal type. Unlike metals eats up the threads and will split.

cheers

Thanks for the advice! Are you talking about the minitec setup?

http://gallery.mac.com/adamhelfethilliker/100048/IMG_2845/web.jpg

Doesn't seem like anything they used is cheap!

[LAMINI]

you are right, they look race material.

you see the lower tie rod bar the one to the right in the picture above, check to see if the middle section is aluminum. If it is, the metal ends cause the threads to shear and fall off. not fun. we have installed both from minitec, those look like the good ones. the ones that failed were anodized.
regards,
lamini

[magic robots]

More progress!

Mini motor pulled.
Exhaust removed.
Mini subframe removed.
Front of the car cut off.
All crappy old Lucas electronics removed.
Everything removed from firewall, including brake and clutch hard lines.
Holes drilled for new subframe in floor pan.
New seats purchased.
Old seats removed.
Carpeting removed.
Window net purchased.
Heater and other useless interior things removed.
Remaining sound deadening removed (my first time with an angle grinder yay!).
New wiring harness purchased.

Woo!

http://gallery.mac.com/adamhelfethilliker/100048/IMG_2945/web.jpg

[magic robots]

Did a fair amount of grinding, preparing, sanding, and painting this weekend, hooray POR-15!

http://gallery.mac.com/adamhelfethilliker/100048/IMG_2953/web.jpg


http://gallery.mac.com/adamhelfethilliker/100048/IMG_2954/web.jpg

[magic robots]

2nd coat of POR15 went on, and now the subframe is on and the suspension is starting to take shape!

http://gallery.mac.com/adamhelfethilliker/100048/IMG_0462/web.jpg

[Ironraven]

I thought you were supposed to attach the engine to the subframe before attaching the subframe to the car? That's what the Minitec install guide says anyway... Glad to see it's coming along nicely though, keep up the good work!

[magic robots]

Haha there's a minitec install guide?!

We're really bad at reading instructions anyway. I might want to RTFM.

Also -- this is just a test fit so we can start doing the wiring and stuff, I bought a Painless harness and am rewiring the whole car. And the tranny is still apart awaiting clutch, final drive, and LSD installation.

Beep

[magic robots]

Just got the car back from the shop, and man I wish I went with Steve's kit. We've had a lot of trouble with minitec's stuff -- I think because mine is the first MTB2 kit that was sold.

Anyway ... it's still not really done; here's a snippet from the post on my blog:


There's an "unfixable" vacuum leak so the idle sounds like a roller-coaster ride.

The radiator fan doesn't work so it overheated all the way home.

It was raining so the front windscreen fogged up and I couldn't see anything at all because we never installed fans for the windscreen vents. Couldn't drive it until it stopped raining. If there's a rainy or cold track day or hillclimb, I won't be able to compete.

The alignment is totally screwed and the car goes all over the place when you apply any gas. I have no idea how much power the car has because I can't apply any. And yes, I am expecting the car to have torque steer and bump steer, but the alignment is BAD. Think of the wheels as those googlie eyes on puppets. Yeah; they face all different directions regardless of which way I point the wheel. And the local alignment shop couldn't do the alignment because the wheels are too small for their fancy ass machine. Balls.

I'm guessing the vacuum leak is because of the cut intake manifold. Can't get at that to fix it unless I remove the whole ****ing engine. Great.

Gonna have to find a specialty alignment shop. Pricey.

I'm a little sulky.

[steve]

Magic, sorry to hear about the problems, but you should expect to have a glitch or two in the beginning. It doesn't sound like anything too serious. I am really curious to see how the new, redesigned suspension works out when you get it alligned. Please give us a report.

[Tavis1]

Just got the car back from the shop, and man I wish I went with Steve's kit. We've had a lot of trouble with minitec's stuff -- I think because mine is the first MTB2 kit that was sold.

Anyway ... it's still not really done; here's a snippet from the post on my blog:


There's an "unfixable" vacuum leak so the idle sounds like a roller-coaster ride.

The radiator fan doesn't work so it overheated all the way home.

It was raining so the front windscreen fogged up and I couldn't see anything at all because we never installed fans for the windscreen vents. Couldn't drive it until it stopped raining. If there's a rainy or cold track day or hillclimb, I won't be able to compete.

The alignment is totally screwed and the car goes all over the place when you apply any gas. I have no idea how much power the car has because I can't apply any. And yes, I am expecting the car to have torque steer and bump steer, but the alignment is BAD. Think of the wheels as those googlie eyes on puppets. Yeah; they face all different directions regardless of which way I point the wheel. And the local alignment shop couldn't do the alignment because the wheels are too small for their fancy ass machine. Balls.

I'm guessing the vacuum leak is because of the cut intake manifold. Can't get at that to fix it unless I remove the whole ****ing engine. Great.

Gonna have to find a specialty alignment shop. Pricey.

I'm a little sulky. So sorry to hear about your problems! So other than alighnment issues have you had any others with the MiniTech frame? I saw Steve's at MMW and his car he is building. I will admit it is a very nice set up, Just wish you could put A/C into it (no I don't want to start up that issue again.).

I did talk to a couple of the VTEC guys at MMW and they gave me some insight on how they cured or eliminated most of the torque steer and squirlyness. Yes alighnment is needed but they said you have to have the car balenced. One even had it balenced with him sitting in this car. This about eliminated all of the torque steer. Another factor is firewall flex where the rack and pinon attaches and where the the bottom mount point attaches. Boister (founder of this web site) and I have come up with a way to improve this area. Please keep us posted.

[magic robots]

Thanks for the sympathy and realism guys! :)
Fiddled with the car today and tried to take care of some of the overheating problems and the car seems much happier ... but it's also about 12 degrees cooler today than the other day. So we'll see when it's hotter out; but now I have a fan working! BUT: It's blowing the wrong direction (forwards). ... at least it seems the wrong direction. Does that matter?

Still assuming the vacuum leak is from the cut intake manifold. Didn't touch that.

Tavis, I'm definitely planning on balancing the car with me in it; I'll keep you informed with that one. Also I'll report after the alignment.

Regarding problems I had with minitec; here's the list:

Upper suspension arm was damaged upon delivery (not shipping damage, but overturned screw during assembly). They sent a replacement immediately.

They say this kit fits under a standard round-nose mini. We had to cut the bulkhead, the suspension mount, remove the front bumper, cut the grill, cut the bodywork surrounding the grill... if anybody can actually fit this kit in their roundnose and keep the stock appearance my mind will be blown. False advertising?

The CPU they gave us with their custom software was missing pins for necessary connections, and was throwing ghost codes (code 11?). We sent it back, they looked at it and did nothing (seemingly) and it came back with the same problems. The electronics guru at my garage had to customize the CPU to get it to work, and it's still throwing the code 11. I'm tempted to just buy a new CPU if the minitec guys aren't willing to help me out on this one.

One of the driveshafts was faulty; we had to return it, and again, minitec was happy to fix it instantly.

So; their customer service is definitely good, but their kinda busted product caused me to spend tons of extra money on numerous extra hours at the garage. And the CPU thing kinda pisses me off. I understand that mine is the first MTB2 kit to go out, so I can understand them having some teething problems with it, but if that's the case, I'd expect some reimbursement for my troubles on their behalf. Am I off mark here? If so, I'll gladly eat my words -- I am definitely relatively new to the business of motor swaps.

I'm still happy with the product though; I'd just be happier with Steve's. I know it. It offers more precisely what I was looking for, and seems more smartly put together and for some reason I just trust Steve more than I do the guys down in Georgia.

I still love you Green Monster!

http://gallery.mac.com/adamhelfethilliker/100048/photo/web.jpg

[Tavis1]

Thanks for the sympathy and realism guys! :)
Fiddled with the car today and tried to take care of some of the overheating problems and the car seems much happier ... but it's also about 12 degrees cooler today than the other day. So we'll see when it's hotter out; but now I have a fan working! BUT: It's blowing the wrong direction (forwards). ... at least it seems the wrong direction. Does that matter?

Still assuming the vacuum leak is from the cut intake manifold. Didn't touch that.

Tavis, I'm definitely planning on balancing the car with me in it; I'll keep you informed with that one. Also I'll report after the alignment.

Regarding problems I had with minitec; here's the list:

Upper suspension arm was damaged upon delivery (not shipping damage, but overturned screw during assembly). They sent a replacement immediately.

They say this kit fits under a standard round-nose mini. We had to cut the bulkhead, the suspension mount, remove the front bumper, cut the grill, cut the bodywork surrounding the grill... if anybody can actually fit this kit in their roundnose and keep the stock appearance my mind will be blown. False advertising?

The CPU they gave us with their custom software was missing pins for necessary connections, and was throwing ghost codes (code 11?). We sent it back, they looked at it and did nothing (seemingly) and it came back with the same problems. The electronics guru at my garage had to customize the CPU to get it to work, and it's still throwing the code 11. I'm tempted to just buy a new CPU if the minitec guys aren't willing to help me out on this one.

One of the driveshafts was faulty; we had to return it, and again, minitec was happy to fix it instantly.

So; their customer service is definitely good, but their kinda busted product caused me to spend tons of extra money on numerous extra hours at the garage. And the CPU thing kinda pisses me off. I understand that mine is the first MTB2 kit to go out, so I can understand them having some teething problems with it, but if that's the case, I'd expect some reimbursement for my troubles on their behalf. Am I off mark here? If so, I'll gladly eat my words -- I am definitely relatively new to the business of motor swaps.

I'm still happy with the product though; I'd just be happier with Steve's. I know it. It offers more precisely what I was looking for, and seems more smartly put together and for some reason I just trust Steve more than I do the guys down in Georgia.

I still love you Green Monster!

http://gallery.mac.com/adamhelfethilliker/100048/photo/web.jpgYou definitely want the air going the right way. As you travel forward the air coming through the grill may counter act the air the fan is blowing causing no air flow at all or poor air floor all together. It's a D.C. motor, I'm sure you should be able to just swap the two wires for it to go the right direction. I haven't seen the motor in person this just an assumption. In using the MiniTech frame I have called them about making a hybrid frame. I did not want to cut the intake runners for fears of air leaks and disrupted air flow. So what I was going to have them make was the MTB extended frame and lengthening the nose by the standard 4" (using the sheet metal and grafting in the 4") but go with the newer coil over suspension. Computer issue's hhhhhhhhhmmmmmm. That's interesting. Good luck and keep us posted please, your Mini looks great!

[magic robots]

Swapping the ground and the power wires will switch the direction of the fan? Cool.

I'm having another problem that I just discovered with a wiggly wheel. Do you think this is a steering rack problem? A steering rack end problem? A knuckle problem?

Should I not drive on it? I figure I should get this fixed before getting the car aligned ...

Here's video of the wiggly wheel:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bN4uKU3ou1o

[Tavis1]

Swapping the ground and the power wires will switch the direction of the fan? Cool.

I'm having another problem that I just discovered with a wiggly wheel. Do you think this is a steering rack problem? A steering rack end problem? A knuckle problem?

Should I not drive on it? I figure I should get this fixed before getting the car aligned ...

Here's video of the wiggly wheel:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bN4uKU3ou1oThats a hard one......................... What about up and down movement? I would think it might be the tie rod end or steering rack. Is it a new rack? If you have up and down rocking I would think it might be spindle bushing or ball joints. It's hard to tell with out being there but one thing is for sure I would not drive it! It could be a sign of something getting ready to let loose!

[william75]

i recently had up and down movement and took care of it by replacing the ball joints...i would check your steering rack or swap it out for a new one...cheap fix maybe....good luck..keep us posted

[magic robots]

It was totally a couple loose bolts on the spindle side of the control arm that goes to the steering rack. Tight! I'm going to make an appointment to get an alignment tomorrow!

[Tavis1]

It was totally a couple loose bolts on the spindle side of the control arm that goes to the steering rack. Tight! I'm going to make an appointment to get an alignment tomorrow!I'm glad it wasn't something more serious!

[magic robots]

Tell me about it; all those parts are new from minitec, I'da been PISSED if I'd busted them up on the first drive. Fortunately everything feels good so far. I haven't taken it on a real drive yet though, so we'll see.

[Tavis1]

I would check for to see if you have an intake leak ASAP. I just read on another web site someone did have a leak and it melted the #3 piston do to a lean condition, and it was a small leak at that. :shock: http://www.16vminiclub.com/forums/viewtopic.php?p=108497#108497

[magic robots]

Tavis, I'll definitely keep an eye on the intake leak ... I'll see what I can do! I don't want me pistons to melt.

I did get the car aligned this morning though. Torque steer has decreased, but has not been eliminated. I'm not really expecting it to be eliminatable.

Now I'm having cooling problems -- I'm going to look into checking to see if the T-Stat is sticky before resorting to cutting holes in the hood for better flow. These things should operate at normal running temps right? Mine idles at like 190. Ow.

[N. J.]

Actually, that's not unusual for my Spec R lump, depending on ambient and whether or not it was just run a bit. My t-stat sticks and needs to be replaced. At a low ambient it sometimes struggles to get to 170º. In high ambient (high 80's to mid 90's) it'll run 178º (digital gauge) then at idle or 40-45MPH after good run (like coming off the Intertstate @ 80MPH), sometimes spike to 206º. The fan kicks in then and cools it back down into the one-nineties before shutting off.

At what temp does your fan come on?

In any event, if you're concerned about the 190º, get new T-stat (annoying install, but cheap) and see what it does for you. If you want to get more air to the rad, you might consider a different grille treatment as well.

N J

[magic robots]

Thanks, NJ - I think there might be some cutting going on behind the chrome grill to let more air flow in.

My fan is on all the time; it wasn't working when hooked up to the ECU so we just wired it to run all the time to see if that would help. But it's blowing the wrong way -- but I don't think that would make that much of a difference anyway, because the idle temp is 190 with the fan on! When mine spikes, it spikes up to 220 and then it's lost pressure and I have to pull over.

I feel like it's something to do with the motor itself, because idle temp with the hood off is still too high; so it can't really be an airflow issue, right? That's why I'm thinking T-Stat.

[Tavis1]

If the fan is going the wrong way that could be the problem because the blade is not designed to move air it that direction. Yea, it might move some air but not the amount required. I would get the fan situation sorted out first before punching holes in the hood :shock: .

[steve]

190 is not bad for idle with the fan off, esp. on warm days; 220 is bad and probably is the result of the fan blocking air flow at driving speed. If it is running backwards, incoming air can't get through the rad as mentioned before. If there is nothing wrong with the engine, there soon will be. I would not drive it until you get the air flow direction sorted.

[N. J.]

Good summary, Steve. If the fan is running full time and blowing the wrong way and NOT running hot, it's missing one heckuva good opportunity.

N J

[sachilles]

ditto to what everyone above said.
You must get that fan fixed to run in the correct direction. It shouldn't take you very long to switch the wires. That will make a world of difference.

You going to Okemo next weekend? I'll gladly help you with stuff there.

As for the code 11 on your ecu, you should look at http://forum.pgmfi.org/ they have a wealth of info on honda ecu's.

[magic robots]

Bonjour! Just fixed the fan direction.

Of course, you guys were totally right, it made a pretty big difference. I still don't think the car will be okay on the track / on a hillclimb though -- it's hovering around 211 degrees on the highway at 3.5k RPM -- if I mess about with the speed and go anywhere near VTEC the temps go into the 220's, which I'm assuming is bad. So I slow down and the temps come back down.

What temp should the thermostat open at? 180?

Sachilles, I'd really love to go to the Hillclimb next weekend; if I do go I can only go on Saturday, I have to hang out with my parents on Sunday before they leave the country for a year.

[sachilles]

Couple of things.
Make sure the system burped out any air bubbles in the system. Some vehicles are a bigger pain that others.
Do you have a heater still? Is it hooked up? Does it blow hot air?

To burp the system, park the car so that the nose of it is higher than the back. Take the radiator cap off and let the car run a bit, it should allow air to escape. Make sure you let it run past when the t-stat opens.

What are you using for a coolant mixture? It shouldn't be more than 50% coolant/50% water. In my race cars I've always run watter wetter with denatured water.

If you have an infared pyrometer available. Use that to see if there are any hotspots on the radiator indicating a problem. Its possible that your gauges are reading incorrectly.

I'm on the fence about going to hillclimb on saturday as I may have some friends coming from boston for the Beer festival in Burlington. I may still sneak down to okemo.
Give me a call at eight O two. 371 9540 if you are going and bringing the mini...as I can bring some tools to help diagnose your issues. Okemo is only an hour from my house.

[magic robots]

Just got back from getting the car tuned. The motor is completely stock, and making 146.4 to the wheels on a Dyno Danamics. I must say I'm quite impressed. The torque is about 107 Ft Lb. What do you think, 15% drivetrain loss? If so that's over 170bhp. Not bad for stock!

Also, they tuned the idle, and found that there was no vacuum leak and fixed the hunting idle. Very cool.

A good day!

http://gallery.me.com/adamhelfethilliker/100014/photo/web.jpg

[steve]

is that stock-stock or with an air cleaner, headers, big exhaust,no cat, tweeked ECU, or anything else? If none of the above, then those are good numbers. With a standard intake manifold, you should show 160+ HP on that dyno. :)

[sachilles]

I'd be anxious to see if it changes your cooling issues as well.

None the less, thats a bit more than the 1275 :D

Can't wait to see it tomorrow.

[N. J.]

Good progress made there! Did they say what was causing the hunting idle?

N J

[sachilles]

Got to see this yesterday. Adam (and Alex) have certainly done a good job. I was extremely happy to see it go up the hill. Made me very jealous.

As far as the cooling goes. I really think increasing the capacity is the ticket. That radiator seems thin, and could support more capacity and fit in the same place.
Since it is cooling off fine at speed(race speeds no less), I don't think air flow through the engine compartment is the problem. However, it could be air movement when the car isn't moving. Might be as simple as the fan isn't drawing enough air when you are at idle. I didn't think to check to see what sort of shroud might be on the fan.
You really should be adding a heater core for the rules anyway...so that could give you the capacity increase.

[magic robots]

It was great to see you up there on Saturday, Seth! Thanks for your help and input. I think increasing capacity is my next step.

I'm bummed I didn't give you an opportunity to drive the car, I think it would have been good to get your perspective on the torque steer. And it also would just have been fun.

Guys, this thing torque steers like CRAZY, and is scary at high speeds when still accelerating. I really need to sort that out. Or just get over it. Does anybody think upgrading the non-adjustable, very compliant minitec front coilovers would help at all? Corner balancing? Or is it not really a diagnoseable thing and I should just get over it and learn to drive it?

Regardless of the above issues, the car is SO FRIGGN FUN to drive. I'm really enjoying it. Some videos and photos here:

http://www.car47.com/blog.php

[Tavis1]

ALL I CAN SAY IS WOW!!! That looks like such a kick in the pants! You sure can see you fighting the steering wheel though. Ballencing the car from what I heard takes a vast majority of the torque steer out. Thanks for shareing!

[sachilles]

I'm really bummed that I didn't take the test drive, but I really had to get up to Burlington. You guys did do a very good job on the car. As I said numerous times....I'm very jealous.
I didn't drive it, but base on the video the torque steer didn't look horrible.
You have to keep in mind that the car has a very short wheelbase, which will make it jumpy. Corner balancing may help, but I wouldn't expect that to be an end all solution. Changing the coilovers might not be a bad idea, again not the smoking gun.
Alignment might be the ticket. That is where you'll have to experiment some. I don't have an easy answer there other than you may have to go with more toe out. Torque steer is cause by un-equal length halfshafts(which you aren't changing). They cause the suspension to cause toe-in at different amounts load causing the quick jarring turn. So you either make it so the toe out over compensates for the toe in cause by putting power to the wheels AND/OR you make sure there is no compliance allowing the suspension arms to move forward or backward. What sort of bushings are you running?
Increasing the toe out will likely take life away from your tires, but make you feel safer. Stiffer bushings will make a better solution if that is an option. The downside is that the mini suspension really isn't designed to combat this very well.

I just looked at minitec pictures and it looks like they use heim joints in most spots....so making that stiffer might be a challenge.

Another short term solution is a bigger diameter steering wheel. This won't cure anything, but it sure as hell will make you feel more comfortable with it in the near future.

[sachilles]

ah....I knew you posted alignment settings somewhere....and it was on minimania

I asked the guys at Minitec, and they suggested:

Front Toe - In: 0.125" total Camber - neg 0.5 degrees Caster - L: 4.75, R: 4.5

Back Toe - Out: 0.125" total Camber - neg 0.5 degrees

The alignment shop did as best they could for everything and came very close, but found that the rear toe settings were not that pliable. I'm using the KAD rear camber brackets, and they didn't allow for much adjustment at all; though it looked like they might. Maybe we were missing something?

Thanks for the input guys! If I find more control over the rear toe, I think setting it to toe in sounds like a good idea. This car is unruly enough as it is.

In my honest opinion, either minitec told you incorrectly or it was misunderstood.
Toe In on a front wheel drive car is not a good idea at all.

On the front I'd start with toe out of .125" and on the rear I'd do toe in at .125". I think you'll notice a world of difference.
For now, just change the front. If that corrects some of the issue, you know you are on the right track. Its also the cheapest to do, as you don't have to buy any parts to make the change. If at toe out .125 it corrects it and you are happy, try to reduce it a touch at a time trying to get closer to .0625"

Rear toe then becomes personal preference. Keeping the rear at Toe out will make the car rotate much, much easier, which is great for autocross.....not perfect for hillclimbs or the street. I'd bring that close to zero as well to make it a touch more stable.(you'll be happier at higher speeds). I'd personally go with a touch of toe in.

This is something you can do at home if you want, rather than pay to have someone do it. I can talk you through it if you like.

[magic robots]

I have a feeling minitec doesn't set their cars up for competition. I'll definitely play with toe out (just adjust the bolts on the steering rack ends, right? And tie the string around the tires?).

I actually have a steering wheel on order that should arrive any day now -- it's a 350mm momo Mod 8; tons of dish to get the wheel closer to me. That might help too. I was hoping the wheel would have arrived by the hillclimb but delivery was delayed and it was not.

I asked BJ at minitec about the torque steer, and he said the kit does have equal length drive shafts, and that corner balancing the car would help a lot. I'm sorta confused, because I can't see how the drive shafts could be equal length when the tranny is way over on the passenger side of the car.

Funtimes! We'll figure it out!

And there will be more hillclimbs, and if you're still not done with your project yet we'll make getting you behind the wheel priority one.

EDIT:
Tavis, I'm glad you got a kick out of the video! Hopefully there'll be more to come! :mrgreen:

[sachilles]

I have a feeling minitec doesn't set their cars up for competition. I'll definitely play with toe out (just adjust the bolts on the steering rack ends, right? And tie the string around the tires?).


Yep, you are just shortening the overall length of the rods. Someone with an alignment machine can do it more accurately, but at least you'll find out pretty easily if that helps the issue.

To measure the toe, the smart way to do it is to have two flat surfaces that you can brace against the rims, high enough that the bottom of the tires bulge doesn't mess things up.
Measure from the front edge of the drivers side, to the front edge of the passenger side.
Measure from the back edge of the drivers side, to the back edge of the passenger side.
The back edge measurement should be shorter than the front. You must do this with the normal load on the suspension on a level surface.

And I will take you up on that test drive at some point.

[N. J.]

Following up on Sachille's note/premise, the settings for a stock Mini are 1/16" toe out on the front and 1/16"toe in on the rear.

N J

[magic robots]

Side note:
Tell me if this makes sense. It doesn't to me. I talked to BJ at minitec as I stated above, and he claimed the kit has equal length drive shafts. Except ... there's a long ass intermediary shaft on only one side between the drive shaft and the diff on the driver's side. Since it's on the other side of the diff, I would define that as a driveshaft as well. Therefore, one shaft is very short, and the other is crazy long. Thus, mad torque steer.

Am I wrong?

[LAMINI]

yes and no.
the two shafts you got from MT are the same size.

You need to take your car to a race shop where they can weigh all four corners and properly adjust suspension and do the alignment.

I am not sure if you have LSD, but if you do.....your car will be all over the road. If you don't it'll very predictable which way it will pull and you can be ready every time you punch it.

[sachilles]

Yes and no.
Its not uncommon, the honda Accord actually has the same setup. It does help restrict torque steer.
The route cause of torque steer in the difference in length, the intermediate shaft can cure it to a certain respect.
What makes torque steer a problem is that it actually causes your suspension to move, there by changing your alignment settings. If your suspension has no play in it and the components don't flex, then it won't make a bit of difference how long the shafts are.

If I've done this right you should see an attachment. A VERY primitive stick drawing.
Red are the wheels/tires, green is the suspension, black is the chassis. This is a view from the top of the car looking down.

When you are driving along, without the power off, and you car is set at 0 toe, the wheels are parallel. You apply power, and your tires tend to want to push forward in resistance to the chassis of the vehicle. What it does is cause the vehicles wheels to develop a toe in condition, the kicker is that with unequal length shafts it will do that at different rates. So if your car had zero toe, and you applied power, then you cause the suspension to move at toe in. Relative to the chassis, your left side may turn 4° to the right.....and your right side tire will want only turn 2° to the left. That in effect makes your car turn to the right, until you change your steering input.
If you start with toe in to begin with it will just exaggerate it.
If you are to set your car up with toe out, when you put the power down, it should bring the wheels closer to zero toe minimizing the effects. You aren't stopping the suspension from moving, just making so that when the power goes down, the wheels are not pointed in such a **** eyed way.
The solution is to prevent the suspension(the green) from moving forwards towards the front of the car. It is correctable.

The problem with mini suspension with there use of a wishbone setup is they way they use the arms. They have a single arm on the bottom, single on top, then you have the rod that goes to the front of the subframe and comes back to the spindle. The arms are single attachment point on each end. The more common practice now with wishbone setup ups is to have at least one of the arms be an A arm. Below you should see a picture of an A arm suspension setup.
http://www.sungroper.asn.au/images/thumbnails/wishbone.gif
Because it has two contact points on the chassis, the triangulation makes it much harder for the arm to flex allowing torque steer.


Now at the risk of totally blowing your mind.....the next issue is the front subframe, is it moving relative to the chassis when you put the power down? Torque works in funny ways. Your whole subframe could be moving. In that case it just has to move the front wheels relative to the rear wheels. In that case your wheels are parallel, and your subframe rotates.
That is the big reason why I'm tying my subframe to my cage.
I'm not saying that is your reason for torque steer, just that its possible.

I think just going with toe out, will fix 90% of it.

[magic robots]

Wow, that is a super helpful. Seth, I love your drawings. Awesome.
The minitec setup does have two A arms in its suspension I believe, so that's a good starting point.

So tomorrow there are two things that I'm going to try to do:
1) Toe out the front wheels. I looked at the steering rod ends and I'm curious about the best way to adjust them -- do I unlink the steering rod ends to the tie rods and spin the steering rod end to screw it in and out? Seems like that's my only option, but I've been wrong before.

2) Fiddle with the suspension. I found that when I got out of the car after the hillclimb the suspension was heavily compressed on the driver's side. So I'm going to just jack up the suspension on the drivers side a bit and see if that makes a difference.

Neither of these things am I going to do simultaneously -- I'll do one and see what kind of effect it has, then do the same with the other. That way I'll know what's doing what. Also, I'm not going to be super precise about it; I'm going to eyeball it and experiment and see what kind of a difference I can make. If I can make a noticeable difference then I'll be happy to spend the money getting it all professionally balanced / aligned (again).

Funtimes!

I really appreciate all of your input, comments, help and ridicule.

:mrgreen:

[Tavis1]

I did talk to two VTEC MINI owners at MMW 08 down in LA and they told me about severe torque steer. They both did the corner balancing and one claimed it eliminated it all together and the other claimed it broughtit down to minimal.

[magic robots]

UPDATE:
Torque steer has been GREATLY reduced by getting corner balanced (today), and effects reduced by getting a bigger steering wheel( couple weeks ago ). The difference is ginormous. The torque steer is still there, but it doesn't YANK you to the side, it just sorta jitters. I still have to pay attention, but I now feel in control, which is such a great feeling!

Next item on bug list: overheating.

[sachilles]

That is good news.

[magic robots]

By the way, during corner balancing I got the weight of the car:

1588 lbs wet, with nobody inside.

Is my car a lard-ass?

I've got a 6 point cage in it that could be weighing it down, but everything else is pretty good.
13" wheels are heavy
Minitec's subframe is heavy
The B16A is heavier than the iron A+?

That's all I can think of.

[steve]

Majic, did you consider: Iron exhaust manifold? 10" vented discs? coil overs can add weight; Wiper motor/ heater box? Radio? 1/16" wall by large diameter exhaust pipes? resonator? external fuel pump? Glass flip fronts can be heavier than stock sheet metal, esp with hinge and lift mechanisms; plus window glass, esp. side glass can be replaced with acrilic or pollycarb; All that's about 115 pounds. plus your subby/susp. arms and roll cage and big wheels/tires could be adding another 150; and a fuel cell is heavier than a stock tank. then you could get another 10 to 15 pounds off the clutch and flywheel, and 20 off with a bike battery; (mine weighs 8 pounds). The Honda Lump adds 102 pounds. everything above could easily be over 400 pounds, I don't know exactly what you have done to the car but it could easily be that heavy.

[magic robots]

Let's see:

Heavier:
I do have 2.25" diameter stainless exhaust piping
my fuel cell is large (11 gallon) but it's a bladder (soft) but it's got some extra sheetmetal in the boot to encapsulate it.
Roll cage: T45 Steel Alloy
Big muffler and resonator combo
Exhaust manifold, yes ow heavy

Lighter:
I removed the heater core
I have a 12 pound odyssey battery
KAD Alloy rear control arms
KAD rear disc brakes
Kevlar Seats
13 x 7 wheels

When I weighed the car before the conversion (using a different set of scales, so I don't know how reliable the comparison is) it was 1480, so I guess it's actually not so bad, only gaining 100 pounds for the whole conversion.

Seems like I should start with the exhaust manifold for lightening the front of the car. ooooooh now I'm thinking headers, cams, and ITBs from a hayabusa...

[steve]

Majic, you saved no weight with those rear discs; probably a little heavier than drums! the alloy arms are nice for un-sprung weight savings, but in the rear don't really help the F/R weight bias; getting rid of 36 pounds of exhaust manifold and down pipe weight from the very front tip of the car is the number one improvment in my opinion. A header will add back only 7 to 15 pounds, depending on brand, walls and flanges. you can cut the exhaust pipe weight in half by going from the typical .063" wall thickness to .035".
Your cell probably weighs about tripple the weight of a standard 5 gallon tank and double the 7 gallon steel version; in the rear is not so critical though. The roll bar is a big weight adder; all steels weigh about the same, but it is the diameter and wall thickness that matters. Rules and safety are concerns, but you can cut walls and weight in half with high tensile steels: mild steels(common in roll bars) is around 45,000 PSI tensile; 1020 DOM around 160,000 PSI. That's about 3.5 times stronger. 4130 will heat treat to 200,000. Most cages are thick, heavy and cheap because of marketing and liability issues, but you can save over half, off your high-center roll cage weight, with smaller diameters and thinner, stronger materials.
I see you have your 13" wheels listed in your "lighter" collumn? these are typically 2.5 times heavier than 10s, and with the 10" brakes you are looking at a 50 pound rotating and un-sprung weight disadvantage!
Of course I am looking at this from a fabricators point of view, I do understand that most builders are pretty much limited to what the market has to offer. You do need to get rid of that cast exhaust manifold though. :)

[steve]

One important thing I would like to admit to; no matter how heavy your car is, yours is running and mine, after 6 years work, still isn't. :(

[magic robots]

Thanks for all the info -- I don't think there's a lot I can do about my cage except maybe fill it with helium. :)

I put my 13's in the "lighter" column because I was comparing them to my OLD 13's, which were heavier than the ones I replaced them with. I definitely know that 13's are heavier than 10's. I dream of those KAD magnesium 10" rims. 4 pounds each? But then I'd have to get rid of my brakes which only allow 13's and of course my budget won't allow all of that. I've blown it all! I'm back to saving and selling stuff.

I'll definitely look into headers though, I think that'll be a good start at slimming down.

[sachilles]

Yeah, the header makes a big difference, comparing the two side by side was a real eye opener for me.

You married yet?

Your cage is weight well spent in regards to hillclimbs, it was built well. Cages that can withstand impacts with trees are seldom the lightest style of construction...but a necessary evil. You have a very nice cage, I wouldn't change it.

Header, flywheel, those are some big chunks.
Your power to weight is pretty good, and as I see it now that isn't a huge issue for you racing wise....somewhere down the road it might be, but not now.
As Steve said, your is on the road and has a hillclimb under it's belt....more than I can say for myself at the moment.

[magic robots]

The sad part is, I had a really really nice Hytech-replica header that just wouldn't fit in the subframe. That was a shame. Now I'm skeptical that any aftermarket header will fit in the MTB2 subframe; it's got like a centimeter of clearance to the stock one.

Yes Seth, I did get Married! It was fantastic.

I got a light flywheeel (8 lb).

And yeah, I think you're right -- the car is plenty fast for my needs and level of experience.

Are you going to Ascutney next weekend? If so, I'll see you there. Hopefully the green monster will give a better performance than it did at Okemo; it''ll be a bit more sorted.

[sachilles]

I might be at ascutney, we'll see.
Can I give it a test drive if I show up?? :mryellow:

How is your cooling situation, where you able get that sorted?

[magic robots]

You can totally test drive it if you show up. I regret not making that a priority at Okemo.

I'm going to work on the cooling this weekend. I have a thicker fluidyne radiator that needs modification to fit on the subframe (of course). And I think I'm going to cut some holes in the hood. I have a feeling there's nowhere that the hot air can escape from the engine bay. We'll see after that!

[magic robots]

Sorry for the double post, but I got an update:

The new radiator so far makes a pretty big difference! I didn't need to cut the hood (yet) so we'll see how it performs this weekend at speed. I beat on it on the highway where it used to go up into the 200s, but now it stayed at 192, and peaked at 196 when in traffic.

I'm psyched!

We also did cut a teeny bit of sheetmetal from behind the grill on the passenger's side (RHD).

[sachilles]

Very good news. :!:
I really don't think you need to cut vent holes. That extra capacity should do the trick, but this weekend will be the real test.

[sachilles]

so tell us how the weekend at Ascutney went.

[magic robots]

So the hillclimb went well, I guess! The car did great; didn't overheat, and didn't go into the trees.

I did really poorly in the standings though; it was my first time on the course and the ashpalt was wet and my tires never warmed up and I can make up as many excuses as I want. :) Simply put though; I was terrified driving the thing in the wet on this course.

There's some in-car video here:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Iw0V8ntNijw

You can see how tentative I was being.

I have signed up for a track day at NHMS at the end of October which I look forward to greatly. Should be interesting!

After the hillclimb I seem to have developed a new "Creak" on acceleration that sounds like the subframe creaking against the shell. I don't know if I should be nervous about this, and it made me think about Seth's idea to tie the whole thing together much more effectively.

[N. J.]

RE: tying things together more effectively, I have a 3/16" x 2" piece of flat stock profiled over the tunnel and welded into the shell where the flat section of the floorboard kicks up to form the footwell. The underside subframe flanges bolt through that, not just with sandwich plates.

The comment was " Boy, if you wreck the front end you want the whole thing to go, don'cha?

Yup.

N J

[magic robots]

Could you post pics? I kinda get what you're saying but my brain works better with photos...

:)

[sachilles]

I'm going to work on my car this afternoon....I'll try to remember the camera this time and take some photos.

[Tavis1]

Love the video!!

[magic robots]

A suspension realization:

I thought that the car was just generally "sketchy" but have realized something. When turning LEFT, the car is planted and solid. When turning RIGHT, it sketches out and feels like it's going to oversteer all the time; even on long, gradual, slow turns. This is a LHD car, so it appears that the weight of my self is helping the car stay planted when turning left, and when turning right, my heavy ass is tipping the car over and killing the grip.

BUT.

I had the car corner balanced.
I had the car aligned.

What the diggity? I'm wondering if ballast would help, which would suck because who wants more weight, or if I need to adjust the suspension further using the incredibly precise "trial and error" method.

I love learning this stuff, I just wish I knew it all already so I could learn to drive already and stop concentrating on getting the car not to kill me. Although I guess this is a facet of "learning to drive" isn't it? A very important one.

[Tavis1]

HHHMMMMMMMMM........... This is an interesting problem. So there was no change when you had the car balanced or aligned? Do you have LSD?

[N. J.]

Items for your consideration...

LSD?
Torque steer? (right turns fighting the tendency to pull left; left turns going with the flow)
Amount of crown in road where you're making the evaluation. (a deserted parking lot would be nice).
Corner balanced with you and "x" fuel load in it?

[Meno]

I struggled with a similar issue also - after months of listening to the bravado of self proclaimed experts it was Don of Mini Mania that diagnosed the issue correctly. I had been blaming alignment and steering rack issues for the diabolical lane jumping and chalked it up as torque steer. In my case, that was wrong.

The subframe separated at a key point in the semetry. One might think any smuck would have noticed but due the color of the subframe and the bushings, no one (4 sets of professional eyes plus many phone conversations with M/T) noticed the 1/2 inch of separation until Don began pulling measurements off of the subframe. Voila! After all of that time and money on R&D (replaced phantom grip with a Quaife LSD, used 1/4 inch steel plates to immobilize the steering rack, installed a new Italian quick turn steering rack )all to learn the subframe failure was causing the issue. Once fixed it tracked better than it ever did so the additional work didn't go utterly wasted...which is the silver lining I suppose.

So that was my issue and you may have something TOTALLY other but the one bit of information I learned which seems to be common sense as I look back is to check primary issues first --> symmetry then alignment then mechanical features.

Hope this helps and good luck with your fix.

[sachilles]

Good advice Meno...check everything first.

I also have to ask, was it corner weighted with you in the driver seat(or equivalent weight)?

[magic robots]

Thanks for the input guys!

Meno, what exactly do you mean by "symmetry"? Making sure the subframe isn't off at an angle or something? Is that possible when it's bolted with those giant bolts on the firewall? I'll definitely measure around and see if there are some weird differences.

Regarding the corner balancing; yes -- I sat in the driver's seat the whole time, and the fuel tank was a bit more than half full; which is how I figured I'd start it at performance events.

I do have an LSD: off an Integra Type-R.

NJ: This is a repeatable behavior which I have noticed on lots of different driving surfaces; small roads, highways, on/off ramps, large empty parking lots, etc. I'm trying to be as scientific as possible! Problem is, I just don't really know what I'm doing! :mrgreen:

[N. J.]

Speaking to Lance's post about checking simple things first. I recently managed to wear the shoulders off my Falken Ziex 175/60/13's with some fun driving while underinflated (28 PSI on tires it turns out are rated for max 51PSI).
I inflated to 34 PSI to wear the centers down while I look for suitable replacements. It was then that I noticed a distinct increase in the tendency to pull left.

Shortly after, I was adding small shims to stop the brake pad rattle that has plagued me from day two. When I pulled the left front wheel to put the shims in place, I found the shock just hanging from the top mount, completely clear of the bottom mounting bolt.
Aha! SO that wasn't a rock I heard passing under the car a couple of weeks ago!!!

Yeah, it tracks a LOT better with the shocks bolted top AND bottom.
Now she's down for a torn right front CV boot. I caught it right after it happend...hardly any grease thrown about.

[Tavis1]

I just went to your web page, and noticed the "MiniTech" plaquered coming out from under the bumper. Is that neccsary or is it for advertiseing? That kind of throws me off there. Congradulations on the new baby! We are expecting our second this comming June!

NJ?