Hybrid / Frankenmotors

[pwr2wh8]

does anyone have a hybrid / frankenmotor like the ls/vtec, b20/vtec, and etc.? if so, please post some specs of your build. i'd also like to know about the reliability of your build.

[jimfai]

i converted my b16a1 to a b20 and switched to an acura ls tranny at the same time about a year ago, money very well spent for the hp and the torque is amazing over the b16 as well.

[pwr2wh8]

nice to hear! i'm considering doing a ls block with a b16 head. is your block all stock or did you do some work on it?

[jimfai]

i used the stock block and the low compression pistons, no work on it or the head, i installed the hondata system with a chipped ecu at the same time, it ran 165hp at the wheels and 215hp at the flywheel. the honda shop said hotter cams and hc pistons would push another 50hp but it is really not needed imho. jim

[pwr2wh8]

what was your torque?

the additional 50hp is about right with cam and piston upgrades. i'm actually considering to do a complete build; work done to the head and block to produce an estimated 225-235 at the wheels. my current motor tuned on dyno produces 172whp and 115tq. as you mentioned, more hp is really not necessary. however, there are many times when i wish i had a bit more power. i guess i'm a bit insane like meno.

[jimfai]

the torque incresed about 50 ft lbs also, but i will have to dig out the dyno sheets to give you exact numbers, going from memory and since i moved 2 weeks ago it will be several months before my garage is un boxed. one very interesting thing was engine temp, even though my car never overheated, the operating temp drop was huge from the change to LC pistons and the small increase in coolant amount.

[pwr2wh8]

generally, a lower cr motor should run cooler than a higher cr motor. this is actually one of the drawbacks for the build i'd like to try. it would be a pretty high cr of 11.5:1. while this cr is stable on pump gas, 91 for california, it requires the motor to be tuned well. with the addition of heat, a higher octane may be required to prevent detonation since a ~10 degree increase generally requires an additional point on the octane scale. also, the lack of knock sensor on the ls block may also be a problem.

[william75]

fyi, im running 12:1 cr on my B18C and have no issues with 91 octane.....

[pwr2wh8]

that's good to hear. did your setup require extensive tuning to prevent knocking/detonation?

[william75]

i have the AEM ECU setup so it takes a little understanding about PGM EFI Tuning, not too bad though.....

[pwr2wh8]

oh yeah...forgot about your ecu. either way, i'm stuck on having my setup tuned by a pro which is probably good though since i don't have any personal experience on tuning. i also have the hondata s100 that requires the rom reader/editor which isn't really worth buying unless i plan to tune constantly.

[Ironraven]

I was thinking about a B20VTEC setup myself until I drove a stock mini :lol: now I'm pretty sure I'll be happy with a B16, at least to begin with. If I get bored with it I can always upgrade at a later date... and I guess I'd rather finish the build and be driving the car while slowly building up an engine than waiting to drive the car while slowly building up an engine.

One of the important things to keep in mind when building an engine is what your goal is. Do you want a 1/4 mile monster? Auto-X king? Smooth daily driver? Street racing from-roll beast? Super high-compression setups are great, but often the cams you need to use in order to make full use of that power can make daily driving a chore. Also keep in mind that the possibilities for intakes vary depending on what subframe you are using... and if an engine can't breathe it can't maximize its potential.

IMO the most well-rounded engine for daily driving use in the b-series class would be the B18 Integra GSR engine mated to an LS tranny or with an LS FD. You would have good power, stock reliability and decent economy, not to mention TONS of aftermarket support as far as cams, intakes and exhaust are concerned. With an unlimited budget I'd go with a cammed, high C/R B20 with ITB's and an ITR tranny with LS FD and quaife LSD... but I'm sure that's not going to happen any time soon.

[pwr2wh8]

IMO the most well-rounded engine for daily driving use in the b-series class would be the B18 Integra GSR engine mated to an LS tranny or with an LS FD.
i would agree as well. i have the b18c1 with a built head and stock bottom mated to the s80 tranny with a ls 5th gear currently installed in the mini. it's great as you mentioned, but there a certain times when i wished i had a bit more. since my motor is in need of rebuild, i'm considering a properly built ls/vtec.

[Quickcarnut]

So True MINI Master Dudes
As you state a Smooth daily driver? GREAT GAS
Super high-compression, full use of that power can make daily driving,
well-rounded engine for daily driving and travel Too

then what do you say about a "MINI' ME" a Modified D 16 VTEC put out around 145 HP to 169 HP +
then add aTURBO to it for that week end mini maddness what another 28HP to 90 HP your call on the BOST

[Ironraven]

i would agree as well. i have the b18c1 with a built head and stock bottom mated to the s80 tranny with a ls 5th gear currently installed in the mini. it's great as you mentioned, but there a certain times when i wished i had a bit more. since my motor is in need of rebuild, i'm considering a properly built ls/vtec.

Without higher c/r pistons and cams you aren't going to see a huge difference in power with an ls/vtec swap. I worry about the lack of oil squirters in the LS block too... but I've been keeping my eyes peeled for a cheap LS block in decent condition just in case. If you do the ls/vtec make sure to use the B16 head as they flow better than the GSR head.

[Ironraven]

So True MINI Master Dudes
As you state a Smooth daily driver? GREAT GAS
Super high-compression, full use of that power can make daily driving,
well-rounded engine for daily driving and travel Too

then what do you say about a "MINI' ME" a Modified D 16 VTEC put out around 145 HP to 169 HP +
then add aTURBO to it for that week end mini maddness what another 28HP to 90 HP your call on the BOST

Turbos are cool, but I dislike the extra worry and maintainence of an aftermarket turbo'ed engine. You won't get the same HP figures a civic gets either as you won't be able to intercool the incoming air as efficiently as you could with the relatively large area a civic has to put one. Regardless of how well it's done an aftermarket turbo install will never be as reliable as the engine was before, tuning is a lot more expensive, gas is more expensive (have to use premium) but on the bonus side if you build the **** out of the engine there are guys making 400+whp with a minime turbo setup. You'd have to go all custom with the intercooler piping and turbo manifold though... and that kind of custom work is expensive. It's a cool idea and I considered it for awhile, but I think I'm keeping my mini N/A.

[pwr2wh8]

Without higher c/r pistons and cams you aren't going to see a huge difference in power with an ls/vtec swap. I worry about the lack of oil squirters in the LS block too... but I've been keeping my eyes peeled for a cheap LS block in decent condition just in case. If you do the ls/vtec make sure to use the B16 head as they flow better than the GSR head.
i'll be using a ductile iron sleeved ls block with 11.5:1 c/r forged pistons and rods. as for the head, as you mentioned, i will be using a b16 since it has a better flow than the gsr head. it will be built with dual springs and ti retainers, semi-aggressive cams, stainless valves, and a stage 2 port & polish.

as for the lack of oil squirters, they were primarily installed to cool the cast oem pistons. by using forged pistons and rods, cooling is much better thus does not need the aid of oil. also, the advantage of not having the squirters is improved fuel pressure to the bearings and a lower moving mass on the moving assembly.

[Ironraven]

Sounds like you've got it all figured out! What cams are you thinking? How much is this going to run you? I'm interested just in case I decide to do the same thing you are; start with a B18 ls block and drive it until I get bored :lol:

[pwr2wh8]

i was originally going to use skunk2 stage 2 cams, however since i'm having the motor built by jge who also offers their own line of products, i'm going to try their 308/316B cams. i'll keep you posted on the results.

[pwr2wh8]

the mini is now in the process of the swap. here's a sneak peek of the block :D

55

here are some specs:

builder: jg engine dynamics
head: b16a
block: b18b1

head work / components:
hot tanked, 3 angle valve job, & stage 2 port & polish
jge 308/316b cams
jge cam gears
jge stainless flat face valves
jge dual springs
jge titanium retainers

block work / components:
hot tanked, blocked, power honed, microposlished, and balanced
jge stage 2 ductile iron sleeves bored to 84.5
cp forged pistons & rings
jge 4340 ultra light forged rods
acl bearings
arp studs
type r oil & water pumps

[Ironraven]

Very nice setup! How much is the build running you?

[magic robots]

That is a sick build, man! I can't wait to see the numbers it puts down.

[pwr2wh8]

Very nice setup! How much is the build running you?
i actually got a pretty good deal. it was originally for a customer who decided to go with a turbo setup and he was using the shop as a consignment. i came into the picture at the right time as was able to work out a deal of $4000 with my core included. to my luck, the build is almost to exact specs i would have done.

[pwr2wh8]

That is a sick build, man! I can't wait to see the numbers it puts down.
according to similar builds by jge, they estimate around 240whp and 150ft/lb of torque. i'll be looking forward to what it can actually produced after a good tune on the dyno.

[magic robots]

That is ridiculous. Horrifying. Wonderful. Beautiful.

[Ironraven]

So True MINI Master Dudes
As you state a Smooth daily driver? GREAT GAS
Super high-compression, full use of that power can make daily driving,
well-rounded engine for daily driving and travel Too

then what do you say about a "MINI' ME" a Modified D 16 VTEC put out around 145 HP to 169 HP +
then add aTURBO to it for that week end mini maddness what another 28HP to 90 HP your call on the BOST

Damn you, you've infected me with the idea of a boosted d-series again :lol: I was sure I was going to keep this car n/a but you and your infernal ideas of boost have made me second-guess myself.

[Meno]

240 at the wheels?!?! That's originally what I wanted for ~ output. There are some crazy builds going on right now. Sheessh.

[pwr2wh8]

unfortunately...this setup was doomed from the get go. the motor dropped a sleeve about a week into the break-in. the shop took responsibility and rebuilt the motor. however, i decided change plans and go back to oem for reliability. i'm now running a '98 spec b18c.

anyone interested in the ls/vtec?

[95_civic_gsr]

it would be a pretty high cr of 11.5:1. while this cr is stable on pump gas, 91 for california, it requires the motor to be tuned well. with the addition of heat, a higher octane may be required to prevent detonation since a ~10 degree increase generally requires an additional point on the octane scale. also, the lack of knock sensor on the ls block may also be a problem.

did your setup require extensive tuning to prevent knocking/detonation?
You may want to check out a J&S Ultra Safe Guard. It will retard spark on a per-cylinder basis, almost eliminating knock. This will allow you to try out a more aggressive tune without blowing up your motor. Tap the block and install a knock sensor. You need one on a built motor.

unfortunately...this setup was doomed from the get go. the motor dropped a sleeve about a week into the break-in. the shop took responsibility and rebuilt the motor. however, i decided change plans and go back to oem for reliability. i'm now running a '98 spec b18c.
anyone interested in the ls/vtec?
That is unfortunate. Dart makes a custom B-series block, where you can specify the piston size, and the deck height. This will allow you to achieve that perfect rod to stroke ratio with a bigger crank. No re-sleeving, and stronger cylinder walls without that huge water jacket.

[pwr2wh8]

You may want to check out a J&S Ultra Safe Guard. It will retard spark on a per-cylinder basis, almost eliminating knock. This will allow you to try out a more aggressive tune without blowing up your motor. Tap the block and install a knock sensor. You need one on a built motor.
do you know if this would work with a s100?


That is unfortunate. Dart makes a custom B-series block, where you can specify the piston size, and the deck height. This will allow you to achieve that perfect rod to stroke ratio with a bigger crank. No re-sleeving, and stronger cylinder walls without that huge water jacket.
it was unfortunate but it happens to everyone, even the best. if i were to attempt a similar build again, i'd probably consider true closed deck block. i don't want to deal with a dropped sleeve again.

[95_civic_gsr]

You may want to check out a J&S Ultra Safe Guard. It will retard spark on a per-cylinder basis, almost eliminating knock. This will allow you to try out a more aggressive tune without blowing up your motor. Tap the block and install a knock sensor. You need one on a built motor.
do you know if this would work with a s100?

I would say yes, but I don't know for certain on the s100. I've asked Hondata about the s200 compatibility with the J&S Ultra Safe Guard, and
everything is a go there. The J&S uses the knock sensor, and pulls spark accordingly. Since the Hondata doesn't make use of the knock sensor,
then there should be no interference. Spark is pulled after the Hondata as well.

The folks at Hondata are very helpful, drop them an email. My electrical knowledge is definitely not my strong suit. My engine builder highly
recommended my purchase of one, since I use mine for a daily driver and I'm not tuned into what noises a motor should and shouldn't make.



That is unfortunate. Dart makes a custom B-series block, where you can specify the piston size, and the deck height. This will allow you to achieve that perfect rod to stroke ratio with a bigger crank. No re-sleeving, and stronger cylinder walls without that huge water jacket.
it was unfortunate but it happens to everyone, even the best. if i were to attempt a similar build again, i'd probably consider true closed deck block. i don't want to deal with a dropped sleeve again.

You might like these articles then:
Larry's Civic (http://www.theoldone.com/articles/Larryscivic/Larrys_Civic.htm)
How to build a 2-liter normally aspirated Honda engine (http://www.theoldone.com/articles/badtothebone/)

[zulim82]

nice article. now i know what to do next wit the engine :mricy:

[Furyof4]

Just to clear up a few things I read in this thread.

-B16 and gsr heads flow almost the same. No need to choose one over the other for performance. Here's a good thread detailing the 2.
B16 vs GSR (http://www.honda-tech.com/showthread.php?t=2524680)

-Using the factory Honda knock sensor is not a good idea really. They have been known to be unreliable at warning/preventing damage. Basically, do not rely on it.

-Honda engines really need a good tune to run safely and make power. They do not tolerate any kind of knock for very long. ALWAYS budget for a tune when building one beyond stock. Fortunately Hondas have many very affordable tuning options. Neptune, Ectune, Hondata, Crome are all proven and very capable and all use the stock ecu. One of the first 2 would be my choice.

-Here's a great basic guide to building an ls/vtec or cr/vtec.
ls/vtec guide (http://honda-tech.com/showthread.php?t=1676914)

When done right ls/vtec are a great engine. They just require a few more details to be relaible.